Sunday, November 11, 2007

Dwelling in a land that we do not know...

On a previous post, I tried to touch on the issues surrounding New Orleans and the forces of nature that destroyed the city to try and wrestle with why I am angry with the way we, as a Nation, have treated the situation. At the end of the past discussion, George asked some pretty difficult questions about how and why we build or settle a region. I was challenged by those questions and decided to take a moment and try to come to some sort of conclusion about these and other questions. I feel that the questions can be grouped into a few categories (however, it should be noted that these categories are for discussion only and are in no way designed to separate the issues due to the fact they can not be separated, but merely grouped).

The first group of questions I would like to address are the one centering around the landscape, since that is my official training. These seem to focus on directly on the landscape and the settlement patterns we apply to them. The landscape is separate from us in that it is independent of mankind, being able to operate without our influence. However, through inhabitation we become part of the system, separate but integrated. In Anne Whiston Spirn’s ‘The Language of Landscape’ she postulates that the landscape has a language of its own. It has the grammar and sentence structure of the physical laws, a vocabulary of the taxonomy of species, and a meaning of interpretation. She also states that because of our current mode of living, we no longer understand this language. She describe current building practices by observing that, ‘Once a creek flowed – long before there was anyone to give it a name – coursing down, carving, plunging, pooling, thousands of years before dams harnessed its power, before people buried it in a sewer and built houses on top. Now, swollen with rain and sewage, the buried creek busts pipes, soaks soil, floods basements, undermines buildings. During storms, brown water gushes from inlets and manholes into streets and, downstream, overwhelms the sewage treatment plant, overflowing into the river from which the city draws its water.’ Or by ‘vacant lots overgrown by meadows and shrubby thickets near boarded up homes and community gardens filled with flowers and vegetables follow a meandering line no one seems to see. In a school that stands on this unseen line, the gym floods every time it rains. Once a year, teachers take students on buses to a place outside the city to see and study ‘nature’.’

I stated in a comment to the previous post that I don’t feel that we should have built in the fragile landscape region of New Orleans. This may have been general and a little vague in the reasoning why and I will try and clear that up here: If our inhabitation of a place is link to the physical place we inhabit, then we must understand the dynamics of this place in order to survive. I don’t think that there is a landscape that is more fragile than any other, (that is without man’s interventions and mistreatments) but there are landscape that react to more or less stimulants than others. Picture a lawn of Z-52 Zoysia, cut to perfection, with only the traces of footprints from the pick up soccer game that just finished. Now, picture a lawn of lichen and moss, moist and shaded, completely destroyed from the pick up soccer game that was just played. What is the difference in these two ecosystems? Not there complexity, because we could study both for the rest of our lives and only begin to understand the relationships. Certainly not their fragility, because they both are governed by the same biological laws of plant physiology. What makes them different is that the stimulus of soccer was benign to one and terminal to the other. In order to dwell in a landscape we first must understand it, and from this understanding will come away with a way not to destroy it. I do not feel that man has the capacity to benefit his environment (and by benefit I mean to make the system run more efficient), but rather he possess the unique ability to destroy his host, either aware of the fact or not, either intentional or not. In biology this is represented by the host/symbiant relationship, the tick and the dog. We are the tick, and there is only so much blood.

When this is applied back to New Orleans, we see an inhabitation that degraded the landscape to the point that it is no longer able to support the inhabitants. In Jared Diamond’s book, ‘Collapse’, he talks about the people who first settled Easter Island and how they harvested every tree on the island in order to erect the giant stone heads as a competition between the warring tribes. Here were a people, isolated on an island, with the only resources they have are on the very island they live, so caught up in their own race for dominance they cut down their means of survival. With out trees there was no shelter for plants or animals and no building material for homes. They out-kicked their environmental coverage. We posses the ability to understand our landscape unlike any civilization prior to us. We have amassed the greatest amount of knowledge and understanding about our world, we have stood on the shoulders of the thinkers before us, but it is us, in these current times, who are the least ‘connected’ to our physical world. We have the greatest knowledge but the least amount of understanding. It was because of these factors that New Orleans is now and will be an artificial city. It will be alive as long as we let it. When we pull the plug it will die a watery death. Only a few other cities can claim this award for last place. New Orleans won’t change and adapt with its economy or landscape or people. It will survive until we, as humans, end it or are unable to save it. Pull the pull on New York and you will still have life and interactions they will just be in the dark, pull the plug on New Orleans and you will have Katrina.

I have chosen not to speak of stewardship here for the reason that I feel that its definition is subjective at best and I don’t want to cloudy this more than it is already. Instead I would like to talk about our understanding of this planet we live on. So many times I hear, ‘what kind of plant is that?’ or ‘how do I get my grass to grow here?’ Both valid questions, but I ask you what farmers does not know what trees are on his land or the pioneer what berries he can eat? Have we out-kicked our host environment and is that going to come back to bite us?

Before we pipe a stream under a parking lot, or pump out the swamp should we not first understand that system and how it will be impacted by our actions, if not for our immediate future then for our children, or the poor people stuck in the 9th ward when the waters flow in?

7 comments:

Matt Churnock said...

george edema said...

Well written, Matt. I have a few questions and challenges, but I'll have to ask them later.
9/06/2006 10:28:00 AM
Matt Adair said...

Churnock - Wow, man. Thanks so much for this. It resonates so much with the Hebrew concept of shalom and engaging in God's work of redemption to move everything back to where it should be. I know that as the area that I live in is exploding in development, issues like these are rarely, if ever, raised.
9/06/2006 10:31:00 AM
Matt Churnock said...

Adair,
I would like to address development soon, but I must let that rest for the time being. I will try to explain why later. I don't see this as a 'moving back' or trying to reclaim Eden (or Edema) for that matter. As much as it is a understanding of the relationship we have with God's creation. I don't see this as regression, which can be confused with nostalgia, but rather a re-awaking to the creation and our understanding of that.

what is interesting is that Christian are the last ones to get on this boat. the tree hugging hippie liberals have been trying to do this for years, but when you see this in the light of understanding God's creation instead of worshiping the creation, I think it takes on a whole new light.
9/06/2006 10:43:00 AM
Matt Adair said...

Churnock - Totally hear what you're saying and see the differences between that and our situation here in Athens. Hopefully none of us are looking to recapture some non-existent golden age or hankering for some nostalgic happy place. So I'm with you on the re-creation bit...

And it is said that Christians are the last ones on the train. My guess is that no small part of it is due to our functional gnosticism that elevates 'spiritual' things while almost completely ignoring the God-saturated world around us.
9/06/2006 12:57:00 PM
george edema said...

I like where you are going with this, but I've got a few questions.

I am assuming from your use of Spirn's description of what man does with a creek that it is your assertion that this kind of treatment of the landscape is wrong. Is this a correct assumption?

And on a related note, how do you view the landscape, or the language of the landscape? Do you see it as being good in its uncorrupted state? Do you see it as neutral? Do you see it in terms of maturity? Like - uncorrupted landscape is in an infant, or an unfulfilled state? Your analogy of tick to a dog makes me think you view man's relationship with the lanscape as being one that can only be corrupting (which I would disagree with), and that man's goal in relating to landscape should be one where we try to be as little of a nuisance as possible.

Thanks, Matt.
9/06/2006 03:53:00 PM
Matt Churnock said...

I don't think that piping a creek underground is not wrong, but a)misses a wonderful design possibility and b) is naive if not done for the right reasons (and that is where we get into ethics and a future post).

I feel that the landscape or nature by itself is neutral, neither good nor bad. I don't think that man can benefit the environment, and I don't think he was called to do so. I think that will be part of God's redemption of his creation. I think that man is corrupting the landscape by his near-sighted actions, and spoiling the beauty and resources for future generations.

I look at it this way, we have been given a gift of the world and if we waste it we will be held accountable for that. We can use it, that is what it is for, but we can not waste it or exploit it.

I hope this helps, there is a fine line of respect and worship. I want to lean on the respect side.
9/06/2006 04:33:00 PM
Matt Churnock said...

that first sentence should read:
'I don't think that piping a creek underground is wrong...'

sorry for the double negative
9/06/2006 04:48:00 PM
george edema said...

I'll leave the first part alone for a moment.

How do you support the neutrality of nature? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'd just like to know where you go for that position. And why don't you think man can benefit the environment? Adam's work in the garden seems to me to be some kind of advancement or glorification of nature, not to mention God's own work in fashioning a garden out of his already good creation.

Two tangential questions: If the assertion of the "1491" article from The Atlantic is true, would you describe such gardening as maintaining nature's neutrality, or as some degree of spoiling it? And, would you include man's relationship to animals in the same way? And if so, would you view domestication as maintaining the neutrality of nature, or as some degree of spoiling it (as opposed to C. S. Lewis's view of animals).
9/06/2006 04:56:00 PM
Baumbach said...

I'm going to take a chance and chime in here. I'm totally out of my league, though, so if you want to just ignore me, that's OK, too. It won't hurt my feelings.

God never designed this world to exist without man in it. Although the creation, in it's natural state, cries out for the glory of God, He placed it here to be worked and presided over by Adam's race, who are to remake it after the image of heaven. Thus, to speak of a habitat or an ecosystem as being in some kind of "pristine" state when it has not been interacted with by man is a fallacy. For this reason, I think the stewardship question must be brought to bear; every inch of this creation belongs to Jesus Christ, and we are to glorify it (and through it, glorify Him) by our interaction with it.

That interaction may take the form of non-interaction where we (with Spirit-guided wisdom) choose, but to consider oneself a conservationist simply because one leaves an ecosystem "alone" is a position that the Scriptures don't take. This is the fallacy of the environmental movement, as it were; tagging on its heels you have the idea of the "noble savage" in the sociological realm. But all of creation is to be "mastered" by us for the glory of God. I think Adair has it right when he attributes many modern evangelicals' non-action vis-a-vis the environment to gnosticism; I would add that our pop-eschatology, which teaches that this world is "destined to be destroyed in flames" adds to the fact that the great majority of Christians check out when it comes to this.

I guess, Matt C, that I'd like to see more of your thoughts on what our taking dominion of the creation in this way would look like--I mean, as it works out in things like landscape, development, environmental/ecosystem preservation, etc.

Interesting stuff. You've really got me thinking about something new, here . . .
9/06/2006 10:29:00 PM
Baumbach said...

I meant "pop-eschatology". Sorry , it's late.
9/06/2006 10:31:00 PM
Baumbach said...

I meant "pop-eschatology". Sorry , it's late.
9/06/2006 10:31:00 PM
J A Greer said...

I would be careful about citing Jared Diamond's Collapse to back up much of anything, especially the Easter Island episode.

His claim that the islanders were at fault for the deforestation of the island so that they could build the large statues that are on the island has been quickly called into question. Lots of archeaologists and envrionmentalists are suggesting that the trees were gone either before the arrival of people, or were in the process of dying out upon the arrival of the Rapa Nui tribe. Seems most of the Rapa Nui faced their greatest challenges not from environmental damages but from the arrival of European explorers hoping to use the island as a Pacific waystation between South America and the Far East.

Personally, Diamond uses waaay too much envrionmental determinism to suit, but that's just me.
9/06/2006 11:55:00 PM
Matt Churnock said...

George,
I hate to join the F.V. moment here but what we are talking about is semantics. All of this is based you your deffinition of nature and garden (a whole discipline in itself). But basically my stance on the neutrality of nature is this: Nature (everything that is not us) can do no right or wrong, it just 'is'. It has no will or knowledge, it has no desires or no ability to do anything other than what it is. If a tree falls on your house the tree was not bad, it was just doing treey things. However, because of our sin, nature fell with us. that is why I feel that the only thing WE can do is degrade or destory nature. This could be a tool for the second coming of Christ. Why does the rapture have to happen all at once? Can it not happen gradually over time? But I am just throwing that out there.
I feel that a garden is some feble attempt at re-creating a pre-fallen nature. That is why we pull 'weeds' (what ever they are). We see that there is a way to make it better, as if it was bad (or good)in the first place. My whole job right now is based on our conception of the fallen nature. I believe that there are no weeds in heaven, but there will be plants (as if there is a difference). Let me think about the domestication of animals, but I think that they belong in the nature catagory. You could see domestication of animals the same way we try to create a garden.

Baumbach,
'He placed it here to be worked and presided over by Adam's race, who are to remake it after the image of heaven.' - I don't think that we are called remake Eden, I think that is alot of the misconception of what we are 'susposed to do'. Historically, that was true. The whole middle ages garden was an attempt at re-creating nature, as was the Islamic gardens. It is interesting that the monks of the middle ages gardened not to recreate Eden but to suffer and be reminded of sin.
'I think the stewardship question must be brought to bear; every inch of this creation belongs to Jesus Christ, and we are to glorify it (and through it, glorify Him) by our interaction with it.' - So what does that look like? I hope not like south 280 or Atlanta or ________. There is a difference in intreacting with God's nature and trying to make it our bitch.
'But all of creation is to be "mastered" by us for the glory of God.' - I think that you reconize we are not to abuse nature but don't know how or what that looks like, hence the quotes around 'mastered'.

I would like to talk about development, but I am still going to hold off on that for the moment.

Greer,
Not a Diamond fan, huh? I used the Easter Island reference because it is a historical example of a collapse of a civilization. We could use the Montana chapter if you would prefer. ' Diamond uses waaay too much envrionmental determinism' - I think his point is that we need to wake up before it all hit the fan, and they way he does that is by doom and gloom. He is a street corner preacher for environmentalism, take it or leave it.
9/07/2006 09:32:00 AM
Matt Churnock said...

"The whole middle ages garden was an attempt at re-creating nature" should read: 're-creating Eden'

sorry
9/07/2006 11:05:00 AM
Baumbach said...

Matt,

Good points. By remaking the world after the image of Heaven, I didn't mean to imply "Eden"; I think Eden was in the same state, in a sense, that the world is in now. Genesis 1 tells us that, on Day 1, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and it was the Earth that was dark, formless, and empty (George will recognize a heavy dose of Jordanism here) and not Heaven. Heaven was fully formed, and was to be a pattern for His and our work here on earth. Note the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven". Same pattern. So, actually, even Eden was to be transformed by the work of Adam into something glorious. An attempt to "get back to Eden" somehow would be a digression (although, maybe not from 280; and if you think that's bad, drive about 100 miles south down 431 to the Peanut Capital of the World, and look at our handiwork!). Does that clarify or muddy?
9/07/2006 04:04:00 PM
george edema said...

I'm not sure if I'm following you exactly. I wasn't asking if nature can do good or bad, my question is about your your statement about how man can only negatively affect nature. This implies a value movement, nature was, man came, now nature, being negatively affected by man, is less than what nature was.

If, as you say, nature just is, then who cares? Why should I care if I destroy nature? If there is no value movement from nature to man + nature, then it doesn't make a difference one way or the other. Acting upon nature is the only thing I can do, and to not do it would mean to not exist. The only reason I can think of to exercise restraint is for the "protection of the future" And if that is all we are dealing with then our discussion is limited to environmental sustainability, which is a difficult subject to debate especially considering we have so little data to draw conclusions from.

Also, I agree with Jeff's statements about Man's purpose being intimately tied to the glorification of nature. Without a purpose for man in nature, and a goal for creation itself I don't see good reasons for being environmentally responsible.

I agree that how we have traditionally thought about these things and attempted to "acheive" them have been misguided and ineffective. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying "steady as she goes," or "Christians have got it right about the environment," or "this is a waste of time to think about." My hope, in asking these questions, is to work out a better strategy for using and glorifying the world around us.
9/07/2006 05:35:00 PM
Matt Churnock said...

If we think of the environment and nature as a resource, or somthing to sustain us, then we can draw many paralles from how we are to biblically treat other resources, like money. We are not called to waste all of our money like 'Why should I care if I destroy nature?' or why should I care if I blow all of my money on bubble gum? Because that benefits none one, including yourself, and it is not was we are called to do. We are also not suspose to burry it, or 'hands-off nature' because that is not 'investing' in our and others future.

I don't feel (and this is just me talking here) that man can ever benefit nature, that is left to the creator. When we 'harm' nature, we don't really destroy it, we change it into somthing that does not benefit us anymore. When I dump gasoline into a river, I don't make the water somthing else, but I make it useless to me anymore, and that is not a good idea.

So to back up a little bit, man can not do anything (on a large scale) to make the environment work better for us, because that is beyond our control. We can, however, be good humans and respect the creation and mitigate our impact for the good of us and the good of our children. God put it here for us to use and enjoy, not to take for ganted and waste.

Let me ask this question to everyone (but really George and Jeff), How can man glorify nature? What can I do to 'nature' to make it better for God? What can I do to his 'nature' to make him more happy with it?

And I would be careful with using the words and phrases of 'environmental sustainability', espcially in todays culture.
9/08/2006 11:29:00 AM
george edema said...

I think it is part of our calling or purpose to shephard nature. If you look at creation, and man's charge to subdue the earth, and then look at the final redemption of creation, we don't see a new Eden, or primitive garden life, we see a glorious city. Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing that making everything into what we normally considr a city, I'm just pointing out that creation, or nature, is sanctified just as we are. God had a movement planned for his creation, and we are the instruments of it. I'm not sure I would say it like "we can make God more happy with his creation," but maybe. I would say that God is certainly pleased when we, and nature, are moved or matured to a more fulfilled state.

I think even our poorest gardens as well as our resource managment can be attempts at working out this sanctification (or glorification, I'm not sure which is the more helpful word choice). Often times these choices are made because of other reasons, to make money, to be socially responsible, to make ourselves look good, etc. But often times, even when the choices are open for criticism, these choices are immature attempts at subduing nature and sanctifying it. This really hits near to why I think your area of study is so facsinating. Most of us are ignorant and immature in our dealings with the physical and natural world. We are like children trying to do rightly, having a sense that there is more, but unaware, or unpracticed in the wisdom of the land. We need fathers who can show us how to shephard the physical world around us.
9/09/2006 01:06:00 AM
Baumbach said...

Matt, I agree with what George is saying here, too.

From a Biblical standpoint, take a look at the pre-fall state of things. God created a three-tiered world: there was the Garden, which was in Eden (the Land), which was in the broader World. Eden was on a mountain top, with the Garden nearby somewhere (a little lower, since the Rivers had their source in the Land, which then flowed "out of Eden to water the Garden" (Gen 2:10) and then to the "World". Now, look at the details given in Gen 2:10-14. Why are we told about there being gold, bdellium, and onyx being found in "Havilah" (basically, Arabia)? Well, one, because neither the Garden nor Eden had those things and two, if you follow those minerals throughout the Bible, guess what they are used for? Building a glorious Temple, ultimately. It would seem that the original plan was for Adam and his kids to go down river, work the ground and collect the "fruits" of the land, and proceed to glorify the garden (the "Temple" or "sanctuary"--the place where Man met with God) with what he finds and produces. This is the vocation at is most basic.

All that to say, that even before the fall, Man was to take control of creation (what you are calling "nature"--be it ecosystem, habitat, geological deposit, or whatnot) and -do something- with it, just as God did in the days of creation. Notice that each day, He started with something less glorious, took hold of it, altered it (i.e. worked) into something more glorious, then evaluated it. We do the same thing. Each day we get up, we see that the world is less glorious than it should be. We eat our bread (which gives us energy for the task ahead) and apply ourselves, given our talents, etc., by taking hold of parts of our "world", altering it, making it a little more "glorious", then evaluate it, drink some Wine, then go to bed, so we can get up and do it again the next day. It is the same pattern.

So, I'd disagree when you say that we can never "benefit nature". Nature is our resource to bring glory to God! One's vocation may be glorifying a patch of earth into a lovely English garden, or laying a road (in the most "glorious" manner possible) to enable better transportation of raw materials for our glorifying work, or helping heal the people that must do that work, etc. Whatever the vocation is, it cannot be separated from "nature".

To answer your last question, about how man can glorfy nature, I'd say this. We take earth and make it into Temples. We take grain and make it into bread (and if we add more stuff from nature, like honey or sugar or oil, we make even better bread!). We take grapes and make them into wine. We take animals and domesticate them four our help and enjoyment. We take flowering plants and take dominion over their breeding and make more beautiful flowering plants (or bigger fruits, or seedless watermelons). We take leaves and make medicines. And I could go on. That, I guess, is what I mean, and that is why I think you can't talk about "nature" without talking about vocation, stewardship, etc.

Does that make sense?
9/09/2006 09:42:00 AM
Matt Churnock said...

Again, I agree with alot of this. And I think our form of communication is the problem.

This post was to say that we need to step back and understand what we do and why we do it. I need a place to sleep, I need a tree cut down to do that, I need copper for the plumbing ect...

I had never thought that God would be glorified by me using his nature, I always thought that was part of life to use the stuff he gave us. Thanks for that.

but here is the new challege; if God is glorified by our building and development, what even more pressure there is to do it 'right' or proper instead of with greed or wanton waste...
9/09/2006 10:53:00 AM
george said...

Exactly. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with the fact that we need to understand what we do and why we do it. And there cetainly is more pressure for us to do it right.

What I would like to know is how do we get it right? What are we to understand, exactly? You came close in this post when you talked about New Orleans, but what principles are you using when you say things like "we should't have built in N.O."? And how do you draw the line about whether a landscape can support its inhabitants or not?

To put it another way, suppose New Orleans, the city, didn't yet exist. For the sake of this example lets assume it is in its "natural" state. You are in charge of deciding how the land is used, or how it isn't used. How would you approach this task? What factors would you consider and how would you gauge them?
9/09/2006 02:31:00 PM
Matt Churnock said...

George,
In order to look at those questions, I think we need to look at a more typical example than New Orleans.

South 280 circa 2001... My vet had a quite little shop, at the base of a mountain, double oak mountain. A developer, and the city, thought it was a good idea to cut down the mountain and put in a publix and a movie theater and pratically tunnel through the mt. to provide a road from 119. My question to everyone who reads this is, was cutting down the mountain (somthing that can never be replaced, unlike trees or rivers) worth the addition of strip mall?

Case two: Missouri water front...I use this for George to be familar with. Pull up google earth and look at the missouri river as it weaves through St. Louis and St. Charles. Notice the industrial park just north/east of the I-70 bridge. Should we push the flood plain of the river back some 4000-5000 feet, constricing the flow at flood levels and pushing the water into inhabited areas, so that we can store shipping containers and trash trucks?

If you are asking me to put a monetary number on the landscape so that we can do a cost/profit analysis, I can't do that. But here are some BASIC guidelines I think we should follow:

1. Protect water and watershed at all costs. We are droping our water table at such a rate that our reduced pentration surfaces can't keep up. We pipe all of our 'waste' water into the streams and rivers where they are lost forever. We irrigate the desert!! why?

2. Understand that we are part of the ecosystem and develop in either a condensed way to preserve habitat or develop in a way to reduce pressure on that habitat.

3. Understand energy and how it is made and used. Reduce that amount of outside imputs as possible.

What factors would you consider and how would you gauge them?
9/11/2006 10:00:00 AM
george edema said...

Sweet. Now thats what I'm talking about.

I'll think about answering my own question and get back to you. I'm pretty ignorant about the subject (thats why I'm asking you) but I'd lvoe to give it a shot. It might be a few days.

Baumbach said...

I'd forgotten about this discussion. Thanks for bringing it back up.

On the landscape quotes from Spirn, there seems to be an awful lot of Ludditism (is that the right word) back of her words. The land was good before man got there and screwed it up--that kind of thinking. But, Like George and I said before in the comments to the earlier post, the land is a part of the creation whose existence is intertwined intimately with man. That "little stream thousands of years ago" was not (or should not have been) the height of glory that that stream would reach. Now, its current state, at least as she describes it, is certainly not glorious, either. But the answer is not to "leave it alone", it is to glorify it better. I *think* you'd agree with this, right?

Matt Churnock said...

Jeff,
I would agree for the most part with that. We are called to glorify nature through our inhabitation since it was created for us and empty without us. You have to remember that Sprin and many of the others I quote are 'deep ecologist' and would argue that nature is pristine without us and we tend to mess it up (little different from Luddites). I can see where they are coming from and would say that (as a result of sin) we do more 'messing up' than glorifying.

I re-posted because I was trying to link it to someone.

Baumbach said...

I'm taking your post a bit at a time, because work is forcing me to small snippets of time at a time.

On your third paragraph:

I may be mistaken, but isn't Z-52 a type of grass that was *engineered* (i.e., "glorified", in a manner of speaking) by man to tolerate soccer games? In a way, that is I guess what I'm talking about. The existence of Z-52 demonstrates just the kind of "dominion" I'm talking about.

Wouldn't you agree?

Matt Churnock said...

My point was that the same natural laws (plant physiology) govern the plants, but some are more suited to certain activities than other, just like landscapes or ecotones.

But yes, z-52 is an 'engineered' grass.

Baumbach said...

But that is good, right? When we learn about ecosystems, we can improve them and use them, right? Isn't Zoysia a good example of that?

On your fourth paragraph, about NO:

Didn't places like NO just kind of "form" because that was where people started to live? I think we might have discussed this already, but comparing NO to Easter Island isn't quite right, is it? I mean, we certainly made our own difficulties by continuing the settlement of NO, but we didn't necessarily plan it there, did we?

As far as future stuff goes, I am pretty sure I agree with you 100% that we need to carefully plan human developments with a certain set of guidelines to go by. I don't mind leaving some areas "pristine" for the sake of nostalgia, but I think doing that on a large scale is unwise.

However, I also think that charging headlong into development for purely capatilistic reasons (i.e., we can make more money if we do it this way, etc.) is short sighted. There is a biblical approach to "taking dominion" over the land, and it includes the majority of what you are saying. We just need folks like you helping us do that.

Matt Churnock said...

will you flush this out some more: "Didn't places like NO just kind of "form" because that was where people started to live? I think we might have discussed this already, but comparing NO to Easter Island isn't quite right, is it? I mean, we certainly made our own difficulties by continuing the settlement of NO, but we didn't necessarily plan it there, did we?"

I am thicker than you!